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SENTRY JOURNAL » Uncategorized » Moving On: When it’s time to let a liberal go

Moving On: When it’s time to let a liberal go

Many of us know people that are left leaning or full blown liberals.  They may be family members, friends, or co-workers.  As a conservative I’ve always found it very difficult to debate these people because of how closed minded they tend to be.  No matter what facts you throw at them, they always question your sources or fire back with some anecdotal story that appeals to the emotional side of human nature regardless of facts.  They will tell you how little Johnny couldn’t get his heart transplant because of the evil insurance companies or how poor Sara lost her home when the housing bubble burst and how the big bad banks were the ones to blame.  They’ll ignore the fact that little Johnny is actually on a waiting list for a heart and has not been denied care or that poor Sara got into a home that she simply couldn’t afford and it caught up with her.  They have an unlimited supply of stories for just about any issue and they all sound the same.  This makes it very difficult for me to have a debate on a topic based on facts minus the emotions with a liberal.  They simply don’t want to hear the facts.

The other night I found myself locked into a debate with a left leaning friend and needless to say it was a frustrating experience.  This is a person I have known my whole life.  He has a liberal education and claims to be independent in regards to his political affiliation.  The subject matter was all over the place, from religion and the homosexual community to comparing President Bush and Obama.  This went on for about two hours and by the time I got off the phone my wife had gone to bed and I was completely exhausted.  I realized that no matter how sound my argument was, no matter how many facts I presented he was not going to listen to my point of view.  At one point I even told him he sounded like a well conditioned leftist.  He loves Obama, ObamaCare, and hates the evil companies that have taken advantage of the downtrodden.  He dislikes conservatives because he feels they are a bunch of ignorant intolerant rednecks who hate everyone and everything.  I pointed out that it was the left who was labeling the tea party groups as a bunch of tea bagging racists and calling for end of conservative talk radio because of the hate they were spewing.  I said, that  doesn’t sound very tolerant.

He blames organized religion and corporate America for many of the problems we are dealing with today.  He feels that corporations are in bed with government and this was the one point I agreed with him on; however he also stated that using the religious principles outlined in the Bible was a dangerous thing.  I told him that when God’s influence in government is diminished it opens the way for government to step in and become our god, and that was unacceptable.  I also reminded him this was the desired state that Hitler and Stalin both sought in terms of government’s relationship with the people.  They wanted government to be positioned before God.  When you do this, then the government becomes the granter of rights and not God.  I asked him what he thought about this and he told me government grants rights all the time.  He then accused me of calling Obama Hitler missing my point completely.  He claims to be a person that cherishes liberty but is in favor of government programs and regulations that steal our liberties and trample on our property rights.  He does not believe the second amendment give everyone the right to bear arms and that hunters didn’t need assault type weapons.  No matter what I countered with, he countered back with nonsensical emotional banter.  I asked him if he was angry at George Bush for the Patriot Act, huge deficit spending, and GITMO then why wasn’t he mad at President Obama for doubling down on all the things he hated about Bush.  He replied he just didn’t like Bush and besides President Obama sounded smarter and appeared more presidential.  It was then I realized there was no way I was going convince him of anything, because he does not want to hear.  He has decided to close his mind and slam the door shut to another way and other possibilities.  About half way through our discussion I accepted the fact that no matter how many facts I presented I was not going to get through to him.  The case was closed on the debate.  So I decided that he is no longer worth my time and I’m moving on.

I don’t consider myself quitting on him, I’m just accepting the reality of the condition and moving on.  Many of you will find yourself at some point in the same place as I was two nights ago.  You will become frustrated and maybe even angry when debating these buffoons.  My advice is to move on.  There are a large number of people out there that will be receptive to the conservative message and will keep an open mind.  You may not sell it completely, but they will hear you.  The time is short and we simply do not have it to waste on people who have taken a huge gulp of the leftist kool aid.  The battle for the hearts and minds of the ignorant is taking place each day in our schools, colleges, and street corners.  If we waste too much time on people like my friend, then we might be missing an opportunity somewhere else.

Each of you will know when it is time to move on.  My eyes were opened a few nights ago with this friend.  I’m moving on.

Liberty forever, freedom for all!

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  • Randy_G January 31, 2011 at 5:05 AM

    Liberals are much like alcoholics, if they aint done drinking, they aint done drinking! No amount of help will solve the problem.
    Randy_G recently posted..No New Gropers Unless You Are A Government GroperMy Profile

    • John Carey January 31, 2011 at 9:53 PM

      It was a very frustrating experience Randy.

  • Steve Dennis January 31, 2011 at 5:20 AM

    There are some people out there who just will not listen no matter what you try to tell them, it is a waste of time trying to get them to understand and you are right to stop trying with this friend because it is ust a waste of time. The hard left is never going to listen to reason because they rely on emotion, as you said, and they don’t want to hear facts because facts don’t always make them “feel good.”
    Steve Dennis recently posted..Arizona group begins the process to recall Sheriff DupnikMy Profile

    • John Carey January 31, 2011 at 10:18 PM

      I 100 percent agree Steve. I have wasted far too much time on this person. This is why I finally decided that enough was enough.

  • LD Jackson January 31, 2011 at 5:41 AM

    How right you are, John. There are some people who will not listen to the facts, no matter how well they are presented. I have come to realize that no matter how much someone tries to tell me they are a moderate and hold moderate positions on the issues, if the only time you hear from them is when they want to bash the conservative positions, then a moderate they are not. When that happens, it is time to move on to someone who is willing to listen.
    LD Jackson recently posted..Sunday Hunt For Links – North American Moose EditionMy Profile

    • John Carey January 31, 2011 at 10:46 PM

      What’s funny is he tries to sell this independent position hard and yet his words are anything but independent. It’s like he feels this need to convince me he’s not really a liberal and yet he is what he is.

  • LibertyAtStake January 31, 2011 at 10:58 AM

    My favorite morning radio host – Chris Plante – often uses a phrase I’ll borrow as a perfect fir to this great post: “Like chasing a squirrel around the backyard.”

    http://libertyatstake.blogspot.com
    “Because the Only Good Progressive is a Failed Progressive”
    LibertyAtStake recently posted..BHO’s Chickens … Coming Home To Roost!My Profile

    • John Carey January 31, 2011 at 10:52 PM

      Very appropriate phrase Liberty. I did feel like that.

  • Infidel de Manahatta January 31, 2011 at 5:49 PM

    Excellent post and points, especially about how the leftist/liberals want the State to become our God.

    I’ve been on this position myself with longtime liberal friends. It’s frustrating and yes, I’ve moved on. It’s not worth the verbal abuse and name calling being thrown at me by the so-called tolerant, intellectual, morally superior left.
    Infidel de Manahatta recently posted..Egyptians Riot for Less Rights!My Profile

    • John Carey January 31, 2011 at 10:55 PM

      Thanks Manhattan. There is nothing tolerant about these people. They really believe the lies they have been sold.

  • Jim Gourdie January 31, 2011 at 6:20 PM

    Your friend is a zealot. It is a complete waste of time to argue with zealots. You have to wonder what your friend is saying about you to his liberal friends. Nothing good I’d bet.
    Jim Gourdie recently posted..Tiger Mom vs Soccer Mom – Who’s RightMy Profile

    • John Carey January 31, 2011 at 10:57 PM

      As misguided as his ideology and positions are, he is very passionate about his argument. He doesn’t really care what I have to say.

  • Mike January 31, 2011 at 6:48 PM

    Yep, those hardcore leftists just cover their ears and go ” La la la la la” the whole time you’re talking and they don’t hear a single word you say. I’ve got a couple of friends like and just refuse to talk politics or religion with them.
    Mike recently posted..Who’s Wagging Who’s Tail- Frank RichMy Profile

    • John Carey January 31, 2011 at 11:00 PM

      He really doesn’t like to talk politics because he tells me he is not that well informed on the issues. Then he decides to take the position of the left on every issue.

  • James Sorick January 31, 2011 at 7:39 PM

    Good post John. There is not a lot that you can do to change the mind of a thumb-sucking pinhead. They had a fit when they were weaned off of their Mothers tit and eagerly latched onto the Fed’s as soon as they could. You can’t push a wet noodle, it just doesn’t work! Don’t let his warped sense of right and wrong put a damper on your day. You did a great service to yourself and the blog by posting this so that like minded folk can lift you up and encourage you to maintain the course that you have set.

    • John Carey January 31, 2011 at 11:01 PM

      Thanks James. I appreciate the words.

  • RightHandMan
    RightHandMan January 31, 2011 at 8:25 PM

    Pearls and swines…

  • Martin February 1, 2011 at 8:52 AM

    You are to be commended for trying, but people like your friend operate without a philosophical basis. They have been brainwashed to hate and there is nothing to be done. You have no starting point. If you can find a fundamental principle on which to agree, then you can build a discussion based upon that – if common rules of argument are observed. (Although I say this last a bit tongue in cheek after having recently read The Art of Controversy, an ironic essay on argument by Arthur Schopenhauer.) Basically, w/o any common ground, I don’t think it’s possible to get anywhere, short of that person having a cataclysmic event in their lives that makes them realize their own mortality and fallibility. They don’t see the world as it is.
    Martin recently posted..Federalist No 15My Profile

    • John Carey February 1, 2011 at 10:00 PM

      Very well said Martin. This makes me wonder how conservatives in congress can find any common ground with the left. I mean they are so far apart where is the common ground to be found?

  • 5etester February 1, 2011 at 2:23 PM

    It’s a tough question. On the one hand, logic says we should not waste time attempting to enlighten closed minded people. On the other hand, if we don’t make the effort, how will we ever get past fighting the same old arguments over and over.
    I look at it from the another perspective as well. No liberal is ever going to change my position despite what they conjure up in defense. Does that make me just as bad? Of course I would say no because I have done my research upon forming my opinions and views and don’t base them on emotion.
    It really goes to show how few people actually effect outcomes. We have the entrenched sides both left and right. We also the huge amount of ignorant people somewhere in the middle that don’t care one way or the other. These may be very successful, high profile people as well, they just don’t take positions or get involved. So there are actually only a relatively small number of people with a swing opinion that can be influenced. It’s our challenge to identify who they are and put our resources there.

    • Martin February 1, 2011 at 3:17 PM

      I think you have hit the nail on the head. You are exactly right. To some extent that is the way things have always been. Some things I have read suggest that there were 30% of the people who were for Independence, 30% who were loyalists, and 40% that were ambivalent (numbers rough) at the time of the American Revolution.

      Smart, passionate people can make a difference far in excess of their numerical representation in a society.
      Martin recently posted..Federalist No 15My Profile

    • John Carey February 1, 2011 at 10:09 PM

      Very good analysis. I cannot find anything I disagree with.

  • […] Sentry Journal – great piece about when it is time to stop arguing with a liberal […]

  • Amadeus February 1, 2011 at 5:39 PM

    I think the most reasonable assessment is that both sides share the trait of closed-mindedness, regardless of conservative or liberal values. No one wants to be told that they are wrong, or that their interpretation is absurd or inappropriate. Both sides are guilty of demonizing and attacking with emotion rather than reason. No one needs an assault rifle to kill a deer or a buffalo for that matter, but not every lazy bum in the country deserves to have tax dollars pay for them to leech off society. Validity on either side is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. Reason and logic evade the world of politics as they always have. Ideological attacks are the greatest example of this. This country is founded on an ideal of freedom, the 1st amendment makes clear that we ought to speak and think freely. So let the liberals speak freely and think how they want, and Im sure they will feel inclined to allow the conservatives to do the same. No side is right, and they never will be.

    • John Carey February 1, 2011 at 10:23 PM

      I definitely understand where you are coming from, but being right or wrong is a matter of perspective. I believe my position is the correct position because I feel that the only course is limited government and individual liberty. I believe my position aligns with what the founders envisioned. This is reflected in their writings and the constitution; a government that operates within the parameters of the constitution limited in their scope and reach. When the left proclaims that government is the answer to our problems I balk at this notion because it is in direct conflict with what the founders said on the topic. Using the founders as my compass I can conclude that if there is an ideology that is in conflict with their vision and the understanding of individual liberties this ideology this ideology flawed and wrong in regards to our founding principles. Today we see this with progressives who claim the constitution is a living breathing document which was never the intent of the framers of this document. This is indeed a wrong position. Yes we may be entrench, but there is a difference and there is a right and wrong in this ideological battle. Thanks for the comment.

  • Teresa February 1, 2011 at 8:46 PM

    I am in full agreement John. I am sorry that you had to go through such a frustrating situation with an old friend. Liberals are closed minded and think they know what’s best for everyone. I think that’s why they are so controlling and use the government to control citizens as much as possible. They are the most intolerant bunch also. They want to act like their tolerant but they display the most hateful intolerance. People who rely on emotions or feelings to decide what is right or wrong have shown to be quite unreasonable when discussing the issues. It’s a good thing that our Founders didn’t rely on emotions to make important decisions.
    Teresa recently posted..CNN Anchor Praises Egypts Muslim Brotherhood TerroristsMy Profile

    • John Carey February 1, 2011 at 10:26 PM

      It was a very frustrating experience Teresa. This is why I have decided to move on. My friend’s tolerance level is very low when it comes to me, but no worries. Thanks for the comment.

  • Amadeus February 2, 2011 at 1:23 PM

    Your own closed-mindedness seeps through that comment like jelly off a sandwich. You are hinging your position on the fact that you have the only correct interpretation of our founder’s thoughts and desires. That’s near text-book definition of closed-minded.

    • John Carey February 3, 2011 at 6:12 AM

      My position is based off many of the original writings of the founders. Patrick Henry, Jame Madison, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, and so forth were my guide in developing my position on the role of government in our lives. Many of them had differing opinions on what the role of government should be in our lives. Some embraced the notion that a limited government based on the framework of the Articles of Confederation was the only way to go, while others actually want something similar to monarchy. I have also read a Karl Marx exposing myself to Marxism and have determined that ideology is the antithesis of everything the founders stood for. Much of what the founders wrote is in a very clear and understandable manner in which there is very little room for interpretation. This is why I have always scratched my head when it comes to SCOTUS rulings when they rule on the constitutionally of a law. The founders were pretty clear in the intent of the constitution. Now if all this makes me closed minded because I reject the Marxist or big government ideal and embrace the founders, then you are indeed correct, I am closed minded. I can live with that because I have reached my position based on my own self-education on the matter. Rejecting the view that government’s role in our lives should be expansive and unlimited should be applauded by all liberty loving people because that is where the founders stood on the matter. After all governments are imperfect even in their best form and as I said I reject any ideology that say government is the solution to all our woes.
      John Carey recently posted..Censorship and IsolationMy Profile

  • Conservative Pup February 2, 2011 at 10:04 PM

    John, your experience with your friend mirrors mine with a family member. Facts don’t enter into it for her; only emotion, and what she ‘has heard’ and what she ‘feels.’ She becomes angry, defensive, snarky, insulting. I have no trouble staying calm and not-mad, because I know the facts, I know what I believe and why I believe it. I am not fearful of discussing it; but I never start the discussion, because I know how it will turn out. She engages me, as if she just can’t resist.

    And to those who speak of people like us as closed-minded, I would simply say, I once was closed-minded, but when I finally decided to do some reading and thinking for myself, I saw that my days of liberalness were over. I could no longer ignore common sense.

    Good post, sir.
    Conservative Pup recently posted..National Organization For Women–They’re Still AroundMy Profile

    • John Carey February 3, 2011 at 6:16 AM

      I think what frustrates me the most is that they base their opinions on emotion and not facts. Let me ask you this. When was the last time you made a sound decision based on emotion in your life. I personally cannot think of one time when I have made a good decision when emotion was in the driver’s seat. Thanks for the comments CP.
      John Carey recently posted..Censorship and IsolationMy Profile

  • Matt February 3, 2011 at 1:38 AM

    John, you should be commended for trying, but in the end, there are some people (too many, really) that will not see facts or reason. No amount of facts, statistics, or anything else, for that matter, will get through. You were right to let go. You would waste time trying to do more. Sadly, it isn’t worth it.
    Matt recently posted..The Left Keeps Grasping for a Justification to Censor- Schultz and Sharpton Propose the LatestMy Profile

  • tobinius February 13, 2011 at 9:04 AM

    Wow! I am in utter disbelief that someone can abandon a lifelong friend because of differing viewpoints. As I read this article and the comments that followed, it saddened me not just that certain people can think nothing of disassociating themselves with family or friends who don’t agree with their opinions, but then they accuse those same people of being the intolerant, closed-minded ones. This baffles my mind, since this seems to be the very definition of intolerance, or at the very least, ignorance. All I am reading here is a series of comments that spew off insults, judgments and accusations about people they either don’t even know, or more accurately, people who don’t agree with their views. This concerns me not only because I see a breeding ground for hatred and intolerance, but most importantly, it breaks my heart that a lifelong friend has decided that the friendship itself is not worth the trouble. I have always been disgusted by politics, and this kind of display is exactly why. People will never agree on everything, it’s what makes them individuals. But when certain people feel that they can only surround themselves with like-minded individuals, then you have problem. A problem that seems more and more evident in the country today. How discouraging.

    • John Carey February 19, 2011 at 10:48 AM

      First off I never said I was ending my lifelong friendship with this individual, I said I was moving on in the political sense. This person has made up their political mind and there is no longer any point in arguing my position. No matter what I say, my sources are going to be questioned, my position is viewed as uneducated, and it’s just a better thing to move on to preserve our friendship. When a person cannot see that President Obama is actually doubling down on everything that Bush did and claim they just didn’t like Bush and its pretty much ok that Obama is doing the same and more, how can I debate against that position? The answer is I can’t.

      As for people here being intolerant, ignorant, and hate filled because they desire to have this conversation and get it out in the open I soundly reject your position. This is a conversation we need to be having because many like me are dealing with the same issues in terms of banging their heads against the wall when trying to debate their liberal friends. They are confronted with the same liberal talking points that are emotional in nature and not fact based. I want the discussion, I want the debate; however how can one have a debate or have discussion when my position is viewed from the start as conventional and wrong-minded and the debate is settled? There are indeed deep political divisions in this country right now and one of the main reasons for this division is we’ve stopped having a constructive conversation on the issues. I will charge that much of this is driven by the community organizer in chief whose desired state is division, but additionally I will say a contributing factor is the closed-minded attitude of the left. And the reason I say the closed-minded left is because they are the ones who have apparently decided that they know what is best for us and have rejected those very things that you espoused in your comments that make each of us individuals. They believe that the way forward is some type of Borg like collective where the individual and their opinions are erased and rewritten with the progressive/liberal program. The collective is the answer while the individual is the problem.

      This is why they refuse to engage in any type of meaningful dialog with the right, because the right is about individualism. They are the ones who have walked away from the conversation and passed bills without any debate.
      I want you to understand this is not personal with my friend. I still cherish our friendship. In fact I still talk to him; I’m just not going to talk to him about politics anymore. He has made it clear to me what he believes and he knows what I believe. This is why I’m saying it’s time to move on. I have chosen the path of tolerance…the path of live and let live. I personally do not understand how you can view this as an intolerant state of being. Your anger towards the right perhaps has clouded your judgment. The one thing I will agree with you on is yes there is a level of intolerance on the right, but no more than on the left. Both sides are guilty of it, I just happen to believe the left is much more intolerant towards conservative thought because the left believes we’re a bunch of rednecks that cling to our guns and religion. My main goal with this blog is to get us talking again and if controversial topics and the position I take draws just one liberal or left leaning person into the debate then it is all worth it. All I ask is the same that would be asked of me; defend your position with facts not emotions. We are facing some serious financial issues in this country; issues that could bankrupt us. We need to all start acting like adults and address these issues so we can come up with the best solutions together. If we don’t we are headed for a financial collision with an economic reality that could break the back of this nation. Then who will we blame?

      There is indeed a sense of urgency and the one thing I want you to know is that I freely admitted to him how wrong I was about President Bush. I respected the man as Commander in Chief of the military; however he was a big spending, big government, Patriot Act supporting, politician whose actions grew the size of government, stripped us of our liberties, and economically kneecapped our country. He on the other hand has NOT admitted that Obama is the same ten times over. Obama is spending money like there is no tomorrow and at his current rate there will be no tomorrow for America. Obama continues to support the Patriot Act and the liberty stealing provisions that are the meat of it. He has not closed down Gitmo and in fact signed an executive order to continue with the military tribunals. His FCC seeks to control the internet even though the courts have ruled that the FCC as no authority to implement Net Neutrality. His administration has ignored the rule of law in the case of the FCC and net neutrality, with the federal judge’s ruling that ObamaCare is unconstitutional, and when a federal judge issued an order to process offshore oil permits. He has ignored all these rulings and pressed forward with his radical leftist agenda and my friend just refuses to see this. His EPA is running wild ignoring the requests of congress to not create a policy to implement Cap and Trade; a money scheme that has very little to do with a cleaner environment and more to do with increasing energy costs and the redistribution of our hard earned money to other nations. He signed into law ObamaCare; a monster of a government bureaucracy that we can’t afford, that uses the IRS to enforce health care mandates on we the people, and directly places the government between the doctor and their patients. And these are only a few of the liberty stealing things this man and his party has done in the two short years they were in power and yet he’s ok with this. He’s ok with all this just because he didn’t like Bush? How can we have a constructive conversation when he can’t see past the leftist rhetoric?

      When I’m wrong I can admit it because I know our issues are bigger than me. I question if he feels the same, because he rarely admits when he is wrong in regards to his political position. This is why I’m moving on; not because I don’t value our friendship; but because I do value our friendship. My fear is his misguided, uncompromising position in regards to the political ideology he embraces will eventually drive us so far apart that our friendship will be jeopardized. This is something I do not desire.
      John Carey recently posted..Rant- Don’t Trust A PoliticianMy Profile